Official Luthiers Forum!

Good points there Don, of course, the internet would be a must and also word of mouth combined with agressive marketing during the music festivals around here would help, being centralized between Montreal and Toronto might also help attract the pro players, Ottawa being our nation's capital sure attracts many tourists from around the world, many things that can be taken into account for such a fine store!

A custom made guitar store would not only bring something different in terms of sound but also in terms of aesthetics to choose from for the prospective buyers, and you know like me how much creativity and refinement are shown here every single day huh?

[QUOTE=Frank Ford] As many of you know I've been both a luthier and a retailer for a long
time now, and as you might suspect, I have a load of observations and
opinions on this topic.

Here's one that doesn't get much discussion, but, trust me, it IS
important.

As an individual luthier (or even a company, in some instances) you're
selling more than just an instrument - you're selling a part of yourself.
It's what we at Gryphon call the "luthier experience." In fact, we’re selling
some of that, too. Among our sales and repair staff, we currently have
four guitar builders working in the shop. And, customers for even the
most standard retail items feel a connection with our sales people.

This connection is ever so much stronger when a customer deals with a
maker, planning, dreaming and eventually obtaining an instrument. We
see a very strong tendency for customers to want to go and work directly
with the maker to get something special. Even with factories like
Collings, we’ve had customers play all the instruments in our shop, then
fly to Austin to order their dream guitars.

It happens more with individual luthiers, of course, and it can present a
financial problem when it does. We have the instrument in stock, and
would like to sell it, but the customer takes off and goes directly to the
maker to get a different one, leaving us with no sale.

I’m sure I don’t have to go on a rant about how our retail culture is driven
by discounting, but I do wnat to remind you that it really is everywhere,
even here. That’s why we as retailers need a substantial discount if we’re
to sell instruments. Most of the time, we need to be able to retail the
instrument for a bit less than it would cost if ordered directly from the
maker. That way, we have an incentive to present to the customer - buy
it here and now, no waiting and a bit of a discount.

I’m surprised by the number of luthiers I’ve met who don’t understand
some very basic business and retail concepts - so at the risk of offending
some of you, let me toss out these:

Retail discount is always described as a percentage of the retail price.
Thus, a 30% discount means that the retailer pays 70%. A discount (or
markup) of 100% can only occur when we sell something we got for free.

If a builder sells through a retail shop, the shop gets a discount that
allows for a profit when they sell the item. If the builder sells the same
item directly for less than the stated “list” price, that constitutes
competition, and because of the “luthier experience” it’s unfair and
cannot be tolerated.

Consignment selling can work well for both parties. The maker gets
more, and because there’s no cash invested, the dealer can work with
smaller percentage.

Buyers want to know that they are “safe” spending their money on an
item. That’s why they often ask how long an instrument has been in our
shop. If it’s been too long, they figure lots of people passed on it and
there must be a good reason. As little sense as that actually makes, it’s a
serious issue. Safety is why they buy name brands that all their friends
will recognize or that they’ve seen in advertising.[/QUOTE]


Excellent post!!

I agree. If you are going to go through music stores you have to have a different business model in place. I think Frank's point about allowing them to discount the guitars a little is a good one. That needs to be factored in from the luthier side.

Essentially what these shops are selling are

1) Instant gratification (no waiting)
2) Endorsement of a builder (which in the case of Gryphon, Elderly, etc. may be a very nice endorsement of a builders brand.
3) A smidge of a price incentive.

I still stick by my original comments though. Beware of the consignment deal -- be very careful. Certainly some of the boutique shops can be trusted, but the local shop on the corner should be vetted closely. Not because of the money or profit, but because of their pressure to sell name brand instruments. I think you need to be a insane rabid lunatic when it comes to protecting the integrity of your brand. Don't let some clerk in a music store harm you because he has a quota to meet.

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Brock Poling
Columbus, Ohio
http://www.polingguitars.com

[QUOTE=Serge Poirier] A custom made guitar store would not only bring something different in terms of sound but also in terms of aesthetics to choose from for the prospective buyers, and you know like me how much creativity and refinement are shown here every single day huh? [/QUOTE]

The other thing you could do is buy and sell vintage instruments. That way you would have a few name brands hanging around, and they might be a draw to get people to consider hand builts.

... and you wouldn't have the quota pressure to deal with.

_________________
Brock Poling
Columbus, Ohio
http://www.polingguitars.com

Excellent post Frank!

With reguard the custom only guitar shop idea, that is something I would like to do also. I currently have instruments by 3 other builders as well as my own on hand. But when one sells there isn't always another custom to hang on the wall. Consistant supply is not the custom builder's strong point.
A half empty store does not cause customers to want to come back more than once or twice. "Don't bother going there he never has anything." This is one reason you need to have a supply of either used instruments or new factory made ones. Used hand built instruments are hard to sell for what they are worth unless they are by a famous builder, in my experence. I have a couple of used hand builts by a local luthier who is no longer building, they are decent sounding guitars with no issues. In utiliy value easily worth as much as a used Taylor or Martin of similar materials. They've been here for 4 years at half the price of several used Taylors that have sold in that time.

Best of luck with your guitar shop dream Serge.

just to be the stickler here

If built for consignment sales then I would not consider it a custom built but rather hand-crafted. To me there is an implied difference. Custom built to me implies built to consumer's specification. Hand-crafted implies built from scratch by a independent luthier

[QUOTE=Brock Poling] [QUOTE=Serge Poirier] A custom made guitar store would not only bring something different in terms of sound but also in terms of aesthetics to choose from for the prospective buyers, and you know like me how much creativity and refinement are shown here every single day huh? [/QUOTE]

The other thing you could do is buy and sell vintage instruments. That way you would have a few name brands hanging around, and they might be a draw to get people to consider hand builts.

... and you wouldn't have the quota pressure to deal with.

[/QUOTE]

Other great points to take into consideration, Thanks Brock!

I would consider having more handcrafted guitars (Like Michael said ) than vintage factory builds of course, perhaps an occasionnal one but the emphasis would remain on making our craft better known to the public, another avenue for them and the players to choose from and since companies like Mmartin and Taylors are aware that we as independant luthier are growing as their main competition, i think we oughta think seriously about putting our efforts together as a community also, we are fighting for a place in the sun with giants you know!

I still have a lot of time to think of something that would be productive for me and for my fellow luthiers so we could all benefit from such a store. It could start very small and develop as it goes, all possibilities are on table now.

Thanks GD, I dreamed of building a guitar one day...hoping this one will come alive too!

I guess i would have to make a poll to see if there would be a real interest in this so there would be a constant supply or flow of different instruments in store at anytime to avoid having a half empty store, that would jeopardize the effort significantly, heck, i'd want to sell everyone's guitars, mandolins, reso guitars and Archtops, name it, as long as the list of builders/providers would be sufficient... Serge Poirier38945.6928009259

[QUOTE=Hesh1956] We had a vintage instrument dealer in Ann Arbor for about five years. His market was here but he made some mistakes like locating in a business district where rents are stratospheric..... A 1,400 square foot store on certain streets in Ann Arbor can lease for $10K per month.......

People like me would have gladly traveled to a strip mall out of town for a vintage instrument dealer.

But he did a considerable business and turned over inventory very quickly.[/QUOTE]

And... the internet can be a great source of customers... I think selling instruments on "spec" works, but the other thing you can do is to run blind commissions with builders who have LONG waiting lists. (Sort of like hiring someone to stand in line for you for concert tickets. -- uh... kind of dating myself... huh?)



[ and... now that I think of it ... did we just switch from builders to retailers....    ? ]

Brock Poling38945.7091550926

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Brock Poling
Columbus, Ohio
http://www.polingguitars.com

[QUOTE=Hesh1956]
Mike I think that we are actually in violent agreement here...

[/QUOTE]

So it would seem. I'll have to read a bit more carefully before I respond to a post.

I was writing my post before Frank Ford's excellent post but I would surely include Gryphon in the list. I've only been there twice but they did have the best selection of "luthier" built instruments. Al Carruth was telling me once that he had a few instruments critiqued by Frank and found his comments enlightnening and that Al didn't disagree with them. Al made some changes to the way he builds as a result. I don't recall any of the suggestions though.

If I had a guitar in a store and a customer came directly to me for a full custom, I'd seriously consider offering a finder's fee to the store. However, I'd have to know that that is why the guy came to me.

This is not an issue for me since I only build on speculation and hope that somebody likes it. It gives me the freedom to build what I want when I want and, more importantly, my control over my process is too weak for me to have confidence that I can tailor the sound to the customer's needs.

Mike Mahar38945.7225347222

[QUOTE=TonyKarol] Arnt .. having never been, or really knowing anyone in any/all countries, I wasnt sure - I know that it used to be like that, just not sure how long ago that was.[/QUOTE]

You're probably thinking Germany, where you may not be allowed to call yourself a proper luthier without the appropriate diploma, but I hardly think there are rules about not being allowed to build or sell any instruments (plenty of well-known German electric bass builders, f'r instance, have no 'formal' lutherie training that I know of). There's a tradition of schools here, although there aren't that many of them, that's certain, but there's also a thriving community of autodidact builders, more than willing to share information and knowledge.

I'm going to have a few vintage instruments on hand and will probably have factory guitars from time to time as trade-ins or on consignment, but the handmade guitar store idea is definitely where I was going when I "thunk up" my site.

I've also agreed with the luthiers I'm currently representing to sell their guitars at full price, though they granted me the right to wiggle room if I end up needing it. I think that an ideal luthier/dealer relationship has neither one attempting to undersell the other. If people aren't looking to jump ahead on the build slot, don't want a particular wood set that I've stockpiled, etc., I've been directing them to go through the luthier directly. By the same token, both Brian Calhoun and Trevor Kronbauer have referred people to me in conversation or have essentially attempted to sell my guitars for me if someone called them and was looking for something that I had already ordered.

Andrewharmonist3438951.5257523148

Ok here is a thought that has crossed my mind.

one of the things about commission built guitars by independent luthiers using basic wood and appointment options that end users always dislike is a 6 month to 1 year wait. If you are specing out custom wood and appointment this is much less an issue with clients.
So if a customer is in the market for a luthier built guitar with the basic woods and appointments, and he or she can walk in a store and walk out the same day with the guitar then my guess is they would be willing to pay a premium over the commission rate for the same guitar. To me this just stands to reason.

In the 70's and 80's there were many manufactures that set what was then called fair market price. This was a set price the retailer had to charge for the product to maintain there distributorship with the manufacturer. Pioneer Audio was one such manufacturer. The thinking was set the retail price, set the dealers commission and make it fair for all dealers of this product no matter their sales volume. This kept the higher volume dealers from undercutting the lower volume dealers. While the market craving for the product was high every one was happy. That all pretty much fizzled out in the 90's as discount stores became popular and the manufactures wanted in on the ultra high volume sales of the discount stores

That was a long way around to my point. That being that if you can pick up a specific luthier built guitar from a dealer of the that Luthier then I would not consider it unreasonable to pay more than if I waited for that Luthier to build it.

It depends on who you are competing with. If you are the ONLY luthier guitar in a shop full of Tak's then you will never (ok... almost never) get a price premium on a basically appointed guitar.

I think you are right... having the store preempt the wait is a good incentive, but that needs to be marketed as the benefit. People will see that as a path to "instant gratification" (or more instant than calling the luthier directly) and they might even pay a bit more for the privledge). But, if the store selling it is full of a bunch of mid priced guitars I think that will be a REALLY tough proposition.

_________________
Brock Poling
Columbus, Ohio
http://www.polingguitars.com

[QUOTE=MichaelP]
In the 70's and 80's there were many manufactures that set what was then called fair market price. This was a set price the retailer had to charge for the product to maintain there distributorship with the manufacturer.[/QUOTE]

This fair market pricing practice still exists -- especially with things like cameras. Also, Microsoft Windows, the Sony Playstation, and the XBox, as well as the games they play.

And, as far as I know, it still exists with guitars too. About four or five years ago, Guitar Center ran afoul with Gibson because of their pricing practices, and Gibson no longer allowed GC to retail their new guitars. Eventually they worked out their differences, I guess, but there was about a one-year period where the local GC was Gibson-less.

I personally approve of fair-market pricing on items like hand-built guitars, or really on any other item that is made largely by hand and in small quantities, especially when the maker sells some of his/her own work directly.

I used to sell a book I wrote directly and I could have undercut dealers' prices because I could buy my books from the publisher at the same discount that they did -- but I was getting a royalty off each book sold, so I could have sold at their cost and still made some money off each one. But I never did. I always sold my book at full price because I wasn't going to be the one to start a price war and, more importantly, I wanted the dealers who sold my book to know that I wouldn't try to undercut them.

I follow this same principle with my guitars. I sell them at the listed price. If dealers want to sell them for more or less than that price, well, that's fine. Let the market sort it out. But I'll not undercut them.

I realize this is not exactly the same thing as the "fair market price" principle, but by my sticking to my own prices, at least a dealer will feel more protected, I suppose.

Best,

Michael

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Live to Play, Play to Live